Several associates summoned me to respond to this post. Now, for context on what’s going on here, this “Germanic Vedic Alliance” page appears to be some kind of Hare Krishna style ‘outreach effort’ that’s targeted at the Nordic / Germanic revivalist sphere and making occasional forays into broader Indo-European spheres.
I’ve deliberately refrained, in my reply, from making any comment on the Krishna supremacy element of this – because frankly, if that’s their denomination’s belief, then it is their sectarian belief. I just kept the focus exclusively on the Indo-European comparative mythology – which is inaccurate, and I would hope to be the result of incautious rather than intentional construing of the material in question.
Original post and response can be found here, for context.
Anyway, my reply – in which I endeavoured to keep things diplomatic:
Right, so there are a few things to say about this. Mostly, that Indra is NOT Zeus, Jupiter, Etc.
how do we know? Well, for a start… Zeus Pater, Jupiter … are, in Vedic Sanskrit – Dyaus Pitar. You can see the linguistics right there. If you are asserting that Indra has somehow become Zeus Pater, Jupiter in linguistic terms … then I would be interested as to how this is supposed to have occurred.
For a second, we should consider the mythology, and not only the linguistics. Dyaus Pitar, you see, is Rudra. This is confirmed in multiple verses of Shruti. Here, let me quote one for you.
RV VIII 20 17:
यथा रुद्रस्य सूनवो दिवो वशंत्यसुरस्य वेधसः ।
Now, we can also see the salient evidence for this when we consider the situation of the Asvins / Divo Napata. These are Sons of Dyaus, yes? Just as the Dioscuri [Castor & Pollux] are Sons of Zeus / Jupiter , and just as Hengist & Horsa are descended from Odin.
Except interestingly … these are also, again specifically and repeatedly in Shruti, identified as the Sons of Rudra.
Consider, for instance, RV X 61 15:
उत त्या मे रौद्रावर्चिमंता नासत्याविंद्र गूर्तये यजध्यै ।
मनुष्वद्वृक्तबर्हिषे रराणा मंदू हितप्रयसा विक्षु यज्यू ॥
Now, at this juncture I hardly think that you are going to require me to point out the luminous lines of prime scripture wherein we see Indra referred to as the Son of Dyaus, as well.
But the point is quite a simple one. Dyaus Pitar = Zeus Pater = Jupiter. Not Indra.
Dyaus Pitar = Rudra. And, of course, is also Odin.
Should you want an Indra cognate in other Indo-European cultures – look no further than the Son of the Sky Father that is so prominent: Herakles , Hercules , Thor.
People often – so this is not a ‘you’ thing, this is a lot of people not quite getting what they’re looking at, and it’s all over Wikipedia for instance – make a mistake of thinking that there’s only one ‘Thunder’ related deific per IE pantheonic expression. So they go “oh, wields Thunder .. therefore must be the same figure across the different IE cultures”.
Except here’s the thing. We likewise have Rudra / Dyaus wielding Thunder in the Vedas [consider, for instance, RV II 33 3, just off the top of my head]; and we likewise have deifics other than Zeus Pater / Jupiter in Greek and Roman IE mythologies wielding Thunder as well. And, if we are speaking in Nordic terms – we have multiple references to Odin as a ‘Thunder’ associated deific … like Þundr, as spoken by Odin Himself in the Grimnismal –
“Óðinn ek nú heiti, Yggr ek áðan hét,
hétumk Þundr fyr þat, Vakr ok Skilfingr,
Váfuðr ok Hroftatýr, Gautr ok Jalkr með goðum,
Ófnir ok Sváfnir, er ek hygg, at orðnir sé
allir af einum mér.”
However, we can state that Indra is Herakles upon quite an array of bases when we consider other elements to the mythology. For instance, the close concordancy between the situation of Herakles against the Hydra .. as assisted by Iolaus and/or Athena , with Indra against Vritra or Trisiras .. as assisted by Trita Aptya and/or Vak Devi.
Or there is the situation of Indra drinking an empowering elixir that is able to give Him the grand strength of Divinity, and which is, in effect, bestowed by Vak Saraswati as Milk … which we can see when Hercules attains such stature via the Milk bestowed by Juno.
To go back to the situation of Indra contra Vritra – we can likewise demonstrate upon a linguistic basis the direct cognate character of various terms utilized for this slaying in Sanskrit, to various terms in Ancient Greek utilized for Herakles’ actions [see my earlier ‘The Way Of The Gun – The Surprising Re-Development Of A Proto-Indo-European Term Into Modern English … And its Comparative Cognates Considered In Both Ritual And Conventional Phraseology Across The Indo-European Sphere’]
And, as applies that ‘Empowering Elixir’ and its usage – we have, again, direct concordancy easily demonstrated between the description of the mighty deed of dragon-slaying ascribed to Thor in the Husdrapa … and various more archaic and easterly IE accounts of similar actions [see my earlier: ‘The Triumph Of The Thunder-God – Restored : An Analysis Of A Husdrapa Hailing Of Thor’s Victory Over Jormungandr Via The Vedic Verses’]
I could go on at quite some greater length drawing from other areas to make the case, but you get the idea.
Indra is not Odin, Indra is not Jupiter nor Zeus Pater.
Zeus Pater, Jupiter, Odin, is Dyaus Pitar, is Rudra.
Indra is a great and mighty Son of the Sky Father.
This engagement has also produced the following New Developments In Theology.
I really must confess I was totally unaware of Odin and Thor being apparently, free from anger, pride, and a variety of other such traits …
Also, this whole “VEDAS DON’T EXIST ANYMORE” thing is … odd.
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Can I contact you to answer some of my questions?
There’s a contact tab if you’re seeing to reach me by email ; I can’t necessarily guarantee how swift a response might be, however